Created by Teodora_Baycheva on Sep 15, 2010 in  Chat ->  Astrology & mysticism

Is The World Going To End In 2012?

yes
no
17.0% 83.0%

Log in to debate or

@hoffpiece
0

dsdsd

on Dec 14, 2011
@pichurka
0

@coucha, saying I think so means nothing, unless you give us some info about why you think so.

on Feb 17, 2011
@coucha
0

i think so

on Feb 16, 2011
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

Well, that sounds creepy, doesn't it?
"Saying that new discoveries might be now within reach, CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, said Monday that they would run the Large Hadron Collider in 2012 instead of shutting down for repairs, as had originally been planned. "
Here is the whole article from NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/01/science/01webbrfs.html?_r=1&ref=space

on Feb 6, 2011
@Emil_Alkalay
3

Y2K was the end of the world. Now we are afterworld.

on Jan 10, 2011
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

Phew, I am relieved now. The end of the world is not postponed. It turns out they did not interpret the Mayan calendar well and it is not ending in 2012. I was just about to write my will...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20101019/sc_livescience/endoftheearthpostponed

on Oct 20, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

I am sorry for my last comment. I didn't want to insult anyone. I was drunk when I wrote it.

on Oct 16, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

It seems it is not going for you to comprehend my point. But that is the destiny of the regular enlightenment. I thought of ways I can express clearer, in ways that you can understand, but hope is lost.
You just don't get it. That we are doomed.
Fascinated by your own well-being you just do not see the global picture. That is OK. I can bear the loneliness of my tremendous wisdom. Pity that despite, we are going to die together.
Just a final question:
Do you regard us as regular, normal representatives of mankind? By us I mean our generation.
Answer honestly and straight to the question. I take it philosophically this time, because I got it that you are not quite OK with maths, especially with probability theories.
So in a nutshell do you consider yourselves regular representatives of you species?

on Oct 15, 2010
@Valentin_Ivanov
0

I'm pretty sure I exist. :)

on Oct 4, 2010
@mipmip
0

@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev said "I think you are denying it inconsiderately." Well consider your theory in regard to the first human being then - not me, not you, the FIRST human to ever walk this land: What are the chances of others to exist after him/her? By your theory: zero! (There is of course no absolute proof that we exist but in the context of this discussion I assume we do.)

on Oct 4, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

@mipmip, @Valentin_Ivanov, I am not certain in what I'm saying here, but I think you are denying it inconsiderately. I need some more time to think about this. Maybe a couple of months, maybe more...

on Oct 4, 2010
@mipmip
0

the probability of ME living NOW is 1 then :D

on Oct 4, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

@mipmip, "the probability of YOU living NOW is 1".
You cannot be sure that I didn't die in the gap between my last post and this one :)

on Oct 4, 2010
@mipmip
0

I think 2012 would be more like the plateau of human civilization preceding a long downfall or, more optimistically, culture shift away from materialism.

on Oct 4, 2010
@mipmip
0

@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev said "Take one specific dinosaur. When did this dinosaur most likely lived?" If it's a specific dino it lived during the 10, 30, 50 years of its lifespan, exactly! And that's because you take a specific instance out of the whole. Again: you can't use probabilities with a specific instance; i.e. the probability of YOU living NOW is 1. Fact of life.

on Oct 4, 2010
@mipmip
0

@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev: You can't find the probability of a recurring event (birth) based on ONE instance of the event. That would give you probability of 1 for current human life and probability of 0 for past and future life. There's your flaw.

on Oct 4, 2010
@Valentin_Ivanov
0

@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev What you're saying goes against basic probability theory.
.
As I mentioned, your theory works only in the past where you know the range of possible incomes and you also know the clustering of possible incomes. Your theory cannot work in an environment where you have no idea about the range of possible outcomes and their clustering.

on Sep 29, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

@Valentin_Ivanov, Until I find the right maths for this here is another question for you:
- you pick one number and you pick 5, then you pick one more - this time it's 7, and then a third one - 8 this time. Are you still going to believe that N can be as great as 10'000'000? I think not.
What the three picks give you more than only one is more certainty than N is not that great, but even one pick gives you a hint that you cannot expect much from N, i.e. you cannot hope human species lives for too long.

on Sep 29, 2010
@Valentin_Ivanov
0

I see no reason to assume N is more likely to be 10 than 10'000'000? It goes against basic probability theory.

on Sep 27, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

@Valentin_Ivanov, Again I don't assume that N=10, I assume that it is more likely to be 10 than 10 000 000.
I am going to go over the statistical distributions tomorrow and come back with more specific maths and formulas on the subject. But if you were right then the fact that you picked 10 is ignored and doesn't count at all, i.e. this piece of knowledge is lost for the universe and that I cannot believe.

on Sep 27, 2010
@Valentin_Ivanov
0

@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev I disagree. I can't know what N is. There's no reason to assume it is 10, rather than 10'000 or 10'000'000 or 10'000'000'000 or whatever.

on Sep 27, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

@Valentin_Ivanov. Okay, let's take you example.
You pick a random number from 1 to N. You don't know what N is, but you know the number you picked. Let's say you picked 5 as in your example. Knowing these facts only can you know what N is. No, never for sure. It could be 5, 6, 10000000 or greater.
But I say that the N=10 is much more probable than n=1 000 000? You don't agree?

on Sep 27, 2010
@Valentin_Ivanov
0

@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev Let's make things simpler. The number of human beings who will ever live is a finite number. You cannot assume (or guess) where the mean of this sequence is, if you don't know how long this sequence of numbers is, if you basically don't know anything about this sequence of numbers. If you arrive at a point where the sequence of numbers has reached its end - YES, you can make assumptions then. Not before.
.
Once you know that the sequence of numbers started at 1 and finished at 1'000'000'000 and that 70% of the numbers are clustered around some point, then yes, you can make conclusions.

Right now you have some numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... You don't know where this sequence of numbers will end. You don't know anything about it. And somehow you assume that number 5 should be around the mean. Why?

on Sep 27, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

@Valentin_Ivanov, You cannot know the future, but you consider the possible outcomes. To make things simple we can assume that there are only 2 outcomes - A) humans go extinct soon and B) humans species live long.
If A) - we are in the statistical mean, because we have lived when the humans are most abundant.
If B) - we live in the dawn of mankind. Statistically less probable, but not impossible.
The more you go towards B), the lesser the probability.

on Sep 27, 2010
@Valentin_Ivanov
0

@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev This is a logical fallacy.
.
If the human race ended in 1bn years and you transported yourself to that day and picked a random human who lived throughout history, yeah I agree that chances are - you would pick a human who existed during the period that humans had been most abundant on earth. But in this scenario YOU WOULD KNOW THE PAST. You know the distribution of possible outcomes. Your theory works only if you KNOW THE PAST.
.
Right now, you have an unknown and unknowable factor - THE FUTURE. You cannot apply the same logic, because no-one can see in the future. You don't know when the humans will be most abundant. If you transport yourself to the future when humankind has ended - you know when humans had been most abundant. From the present's point of view, you don't know that. That's a huge difference.

on Sep 27, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

@Valentin_Ivanov, Then we are screwed to live now, i.e. in the very beginning of intelligent life on Earth. It would have been so much more fun to live in the future.

on Sep 27, 2010
@Valentin_Ivanov
0

@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev You don't know the distribution of humans living throughout human existence. Therefore, you cannot pick a random human (yourself) and assume that chances are -- you are somewhere around the mean. It's like picking the number 1000 and saying, "well, chances are this number is around the mean." You don't know the range and distribution of possible numbers. You don't have the benefit of hindsight, therefore you cannot assume like that.
.
With dinosaurs it is easier. You know when they began and ended. You know when they were most abundant. Therefore, yeah, picking a random dinosaur would likely result in picking one who lived around the time they were most abundant.
.
Basically, it boils down to this - your theory works when applied in the past. You KNOW the past. No-one can predict the future. Your theory cannot be applied to the future.

on Sep 27, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

@Valentin_Ivanov, I admit there is a chance that we are amongst the first representatives of our species. If it so then we have a great chance. If humans continue to exist for let's say 1 more bln years and taking into consideration the population growth (or even if we assume that there will, be no growth at all) then this means that in a billion years so many people would have bean lived on earth, that the ones that have lived before our generation are only a very, very small fraction of the total number of humans that are going to ever live. I won't do the math now (although I promise to do it if this debate continues) but at first look I would say the chance would be that we have lived amongst the first 0.00000001% of the representatives of our species. Or in other words it would be much more likely to win the lottery than to live before our generation. This looks too much of a chance for me and I regard that taking this chance for something that is almost certain is as much geo- and self-centric as was the geocentric model for the ancient.

on Sep 27, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

@pichurka, If next millennium 50 bln people live on Earth, then we are outside of the statistical mean, as we now know for certain for the people who lived 3000 years ago for example.
What is it more likely - to be outside of the statistical mean or inside it?
But 3000 is too short time.
Look at the big scale. Humans have existed for a very short time in cosmic scale. Why are we born now, about 2 million years after homo sapience appeared? Compare 2 million years with 4 billion years of Earth existence and 15 billion years of Universe existence and you will see how soon after our species appearance is the birth of our generation. It seems too much of a chance to me for us to be born in the very beginning of the existence of our species. I find it much more likely that we are not between the chosen pioneers to begin the species bur rather to live in the midst of its reign on Earth or even during its fall and decay.

on Sep 27, 2010
@Valentin_Ivanov
0

@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev Your example with dinosaurs is not relevant, because you have the benefit of hindsight. You know when dinosaurs appeared and disappeared.
.
You don't know that about humans. You don't know when humans will be most abundant. Why do you assume it is the present? Not every human (or dinosaur) is born during the most abundant period of the existence of the species. I don't see any reason (theoretical or empirical) to believe this is the most abundant period of human existence. Saying "otherwise you would have been born in the future" does no count.

on Sep 27, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

@Valentin_Ivanov, I think this theory sounds strange to humans because of the somewhat wrong way humans perceive time and specifically the future.
Let me give you example regarding the past. It might be clearer:
Take one specific dinosaur. When did this dinosaur most likely lived? It cannot be before dinosaurs appeared on the Earth and it cannot be after they went extinct, so it is some time in between. If you have to make a guess, in order to have the greatest chance to guess it right you would say the time when dinosaurs were most abundant on Earth.
So you take a specific human. You take yourself. (Who can be more specific than yourself?) When is most likely you were born? The answer is when humans were most abundant. So it is either the case that right now mankind is at its peak in population or our generation has the privilege or unhappiness to live outside the statistical mean.

on Sep 27, 2010
@pichurka
0

@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev, following your logic, can't one say that we are among the few people who were born in the present, and not in another millennium (when there may be 50 billion people on Earth)?

on Sep 27, 2010
@Valentin_Ivanov
0

Well, I did. It's like saying "A pink unicorn in Andromeda constellation created the Universe." It simply cannot be proved or disproved.

on Sep 27, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

@Valentin_Ivanov, Again, you are not saying what EXACTLY looks wrong with the theory to you?

on Sep 27, 2010
@Valentin_Ivanov
0

And specifically about your theory: how do you know you were not born in the future? It would appear as the present to you. Therefore, this theory has no ground to step on -- it cannot be proved or disproved.

on Sep 27, 2010
@Valentin_Ivanov
0

@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev So, if I am following your logic correctly: some theories were judged absurd by the public in the in past, but were later proved to be correct. You come up with an absurd theory now. Therefore, it has a good chance of being proven correct in the future. Ooooooooookay.

on Sep 27, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

@Valentin_Ivanov, I know how absurd it might look, but so were many theories when they were first expressed. No, I was not drunk (by the time I expressed it), and it sounds strange to me too, but I cannot find a flaw in this theory. Can you point out what exactly looks ridiculous to you?

on Sep 27, 2010
@Valentin_Ivanov
0

@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev This is a ridiculous point of view. Unless you are joking, I must assume you are drunk. :)

on Sep 27, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

Although I don't believe in the 2012 myth, I must admit there is a big chance that the world ends very soon.
Follow this line of thoughts and Q&A:
- Why are you born now and not 20 centuries or 100 centuries or 2 000 000 years ago? Because there are many more human beings now than then, so the chance that you are born now is much greater than the chance you were born in the past.
- Next question: Why are you born now, but not in 200 or 5000 years? If we follow the pattern - because there will be less people then than there are now. How is this possible? After all the total human population is on the rise for the last hundreds of millennia. The answer could be that either this trend was reverted for some reason (famine, nuclear wards) and the population count starts to decline in the future or the world ends and there is no population at all in the future.

on Sep 27, 2010
@kroko7
0

Who knows for sure?

on Sep 23, 2010
@Yordan_Yordanov
0

NO :)

on Sep 16, 2010
@pichurka
0

I don't think 2012's Armageddon will be much bigger than 2000's.

on Sep 15, 2010
@Steliyan_Petkov_Georgiev
0

I don't think so. The prediction is based on the fact that the Mayan calendar ends in the year 2012, but as history showed the Mayas became extinct long ago so even this calendar proved to be more than enough for them.

on Sep 15, 2010
1 - 43 out of 43